Ms. Jackson (Part Two)

(((JUSTICE FOR BREONNA TAYLOR))) Trina and Shereetha J. continue their lyrical analysis of "Ms. Jackson" by OutKast by inviting new voices to the table. In the first half of this episode you'll hear from Dee--a Playa from the Himalayas--who understands all too well the societal pressures of being a black woman and also takes a moment to place herself in Ms. Jackson's shoes. Lastly, you'll hear from Kim and Dennis who are Episcopal priests and much more; yet, each offer their own unique perspective on faith, apology culture, hip hop, and the definition of gospel.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Trina  0:21  
Thank you so much for being here Dee. 

Dee  0:23  
Oh, absolutely. You know, I decided to prop myself up on a couple of pillows and make myself available not nap during this time period, you know? 

Trina  0:37  
Well that is high praise that you are foregoing a nap, like that's real. 

Dee  0:43  
Yeah. That's big time for me.

Shereetha J.  0:44  
Well, Pimpin' we appreciate you for saying yes. So, yeah. Who you be?

Dee  0:57  
I am. The meanest bitch in the world. AKA Dee. AKA it's a great day to leave me the fuck alone.

Shereetha J.  1:08  
Mic drop. (laughter)

Trina  1:12  
You sound like Eveline from "The Wiz". (laughter)

Dee  1:21  
You can pick whichever one of those you want to and I'm sure it's someone in this world who will agree. (laughter)

Trina  1:28  
How do you come to this project? 

Dee  1:30  
Pimp tight. Playa. Playa-Playa from the Himalayas. (laughter)

Trina  1:31  
It is clear that you don't want the federal government to know who you or what you're doing and I respect that. Since you told us that you have Tibetan Heritage.

Dee  1:51  
Thank y'all for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. When I first heard this song I was young. I can't even remember when this song came out. I remember being young and really not knowing what was this supposed to mean? Like what was the underlying meaning of saying he's sorry. Now, I see it as more like a coming of age, you know, you do a lot of fucking up, when you're young. And then you get a chance to sit back and reflect and be like, you know what I you know, I did some, some stupid stuff. And you know, I can own up to a man and a woman enough to own up to it. And that's how I see it.

Trina  2:32  
Yeah, the song came out in 2000 I think so, it's squarely 20 years old. So what you were maybe what 14, 15 years old?

Dee  2:40  
Uh. Lies. Yes, that's true. (laughter)

Trina  2:45  
I said maybe.

Dee  2:48  
I mean, yes, that was that was my age range. I was a freshman in high school. I had no clue what was wrong and what was right left, right. Nothing.

Trina  3:01  
You were 14, 15 years old. You've heard it, you know, 1000 times since then. What about the song grabbed you when you heard it today? 

Dee  3:10  
Like they were much older than me then. And still had no fucking clue. 

Trina  3:14  
Hmm.

Dee  3:17  
And it let me know. Not only did I not have a clue then where I was, but it might also take me some time from where I was to have a fucking clue. Because I still find today at 35, like sometimes I still have no fucking clue about just how to navigate certain things. But having the wherewithal to know that I be fucking off sometime, but I know that. It's a lot of people that don't even know that they be fucking up. And at least I do have that. But you know, I be working on it, I be trying.

Trina  3:53  
Thank you. That's actually really helpful insight. I think that and you tell me if I'm hearing you right that you'reresonating with now the song helps you recognize the wisdom and humility of just we all fuck up. And recognizing it is such a huge thing like and i and i think in some ways it's really countercultural as we think and talk about this revival of canceled culture. Cause y'all know Nick Cannon just lost his job and all that stuff. And, a bunch of folks just left New York Times. So people are talking about being canceled. But part of that culture is we haven't figured out in popular culture, how to say I fucked up. 

Dee  4:31  
Mm hmm. 

Trina  4:32  
Can I have another chance? Or let me be responsible for the harm that I've caused, or we haven't figured out a formula. I don't know that there be one formula, but we haven't figured out how to publicly express humility and wisdom. 

Dee  4:47  
Absolutely. And I was having a conversation last night about the absolute lack of communication skills that we have in the black community. We don't know how to properly communicate through things anger us. So if you have a disagreement with someone is automatically got to be an argument. We don't know how to properly communicate. So therefore we can't navigate. And that's how that song resonates with me. Because here these guys were much older than me at the time of this song. And as a young teenager or even a kid, you're looking at older people like they have the answers Like, they're supposed to know what to do and what not to do in these situations. And they don't either. Because they don't, they haven't been taught proper communication skills, how to properly navigate. So that's how this songs connects with me.

Trina  5:41  
So much of how we handle our communication. And what cancel culture has become, is because we're often dealing with either celebrities or people that we make into celebrities so that we can treat them a particular way. So say Amy Cooper, the woman who was harassing. I can't remember his first name, the black man who was bird watching in Central Park. She got on video and people circulated her information. She lost her job, all of that. So she wasn't a celebrity before that she became a celebrity because of her bad behavior that got put out there, promoted. And then she started losing things. And then we could çancel her because now we all know who she is. And that's how part of how this how Twitter and other social platforms work. 

Trina  6:26  
We make people notorious celebrities, and then we can treat them like a celebrity. When I say treat them like a celebrity, a celebrity has an inordinate amount of influence and power. And so and we and I think the idea behind canceling a celebrity is because generally speaking, they're already wealthy. So they have a lot of influence and potentially power in society. So if we cancel them, we stop them from being able to do more harm. And so we take single individuals who are not necessarily celebrities who are acting badly and we elevate them to the level of celebrity, then we can also put them through that process. What we miss here is that cancel culture from my perspective, and I'd be willing to hear some pushback on this, that cancel culture actually came about through organizing in activist communities where people had the relationships with each other. 

Trina  7:14  
So you know, we've changed the language from calling folks out to calling people in and trying to mitigate what cancel culture does. But all of that was based on you fucked up within relationship. And the question becomes, can we reconcile you back to this group that we have, or not? With cancel culture publicly, there is no group that has an agreed upon covenant agreed upon community values and rules. And so it's just kind of a situation that that's lawless, that we take it upon ourselves and say, we're going to shut down these celebrity people. We're going to make other people who are not yet celebrities into notorious celebrities, so we can put them through the same process. And so we missed a step in there based on relationship and shared values.

Trina  7:59  
Where cancel. culture could actually be useful. And so when Dee talks about communication, the only communication we ever get from celebrities is, first of all the work of the art and entertainment or sports that they're putting out there. And then I'm sorry, there's no relationship there. And the thing with celebrities is we feel like we know them. But we don't we don't know them. And so the communication and the humility and the wisdom that Dee is talking about, we can use that when we have relationships with people, but if we don't have relationships with people, are we right to cancel them?

Dee  8:33  
Let me ask this question, you pose and this is what I thought of, would we not know them through their music? Would it be wrong to say this is at least part of who they are?

Trina  8:46  
Part of who they are. But that's like saying that you know me through their eating the tomatoes that I grow. 

Dee  8:52  
Well, yeah, I know something. But this is something that we're expressing. Like this is this is something that they took the time to create and express. Now I'm not saying you can you can know the totality of a person or you know every single thing about them because I totally understand that there are artists who fake the funk. You a thug and in your music, but, you know, you're a stay at home Dad, you know, Monday through Thursday, right? So I get it, but some part of what you're expressing has to be a part of you whether conscious or unconscious.

Trina  9:29  
I guess on a very broad way, because, you know, we particularly folks who have a big following there, there's a whole team of people who cultivate that, right? Who curate who we think they are. Because I mean, I'm gonna say this and this might be controversial. There's no part of listening to Michael Jackson songs that made me say, this do my fucking kids in the ass. Like, I've never listened to a song that made me come to that conclusion. 

Dee  9:54  
I don't think he did anyway, but you know, no, that's neither here nor there to your point.

Trina  9:58  
You see what I'm saying? Like he has an impressive discography. But there's nothing about besides knowing that he cares a lot about children that made me draw any conclusions about his complicated relationship to childhood beyond knowing his own troubled childhood and his abusive father. But we but we know something is amiss there like whether or not he was a pedophile. There's a fly in that ointment somewhere, but nothing about his music, lets me know that.

Trina  10:28  
I think there are a number of musicians like James Brown, who is an incredibly physically abusive person, but his music doesn't necessarily belie that and I think that we make a lot of exceptions for people who are talented. Right? We do this with politicians, we do this for anybody who's really good at whatever they do. We want the thing that they produce, and we give them a pass that we wouldn't give other people. 

Trina  10:52  
Beyonce did an interesting thing by turning her hurt of Jay Z's infidelity into something that she could capitalize off of it. None of us were like oh my god I should write a note to Beyonce and see how she's doing. Let me give her a call. She must be very sad and hurt because we don't have a personal relationship Beyonce. 

Dee  11:10  
I don't know. The Bey-hive probably sent her several care packages.

Trina  11:13  
But not because they know her they sent her care packages based on what they love about her not because they know her. They don't know when her period is happening. 

Dee  11:21  
No, they don't. But a lot of those Bey-hivers are women. And they also are women who date people who have cheated so they may not know her but they know the situation. 

Trina  11:32  
So they can have sympathy but not empathy. They're also not, most of them aren't multimillionaires, so like there's only so much we can say that they know Beyonce. Like as a like a regular regular person. Me being cheated on and what I will do to get over my infidelity that happens in my life is very different from what Beyonce can access to soothe herself during hers. 

Dee  11:58  
But at the end of the day, the feeling are the same.

Trina  12:01  
I don't think that they are. Like I think this is how capitalism tricks us and saying that wealthy people feel the same as you do. And if you have more access to resources if you have more access to to better things, it is not the same. How I experienced stress is not the same as how I experienced stress when I was in dire poverty. 

Dee  12:21  
That may be true, but you still hurt and she does too. And no matter the amount of money, she has to stop her feelings from getting hurt.

Trina  12:30  
But our hurt is not the same hurt is what I'm saying. Like we can use the same word for hurt. And there's of course some similarities as humans that hurt is hurt, but there's a different type of hurt that happens. Beyonce can be hurt and say I'm not gonna work for a year and her lights going to stay on. 

Dee  12:47  
I feel like that's her healing. Not necessarily her hurt. She can hurt just like I hurt or I can hurt just like she hurts. Now how I get over it might be two totally different ways. But we going to hurt the same.

Interlude (Shereetha)  13:00  
Thank you for joining us for part two of our lyrical analysis of Ms. Jackson. We'd love to hear your thought so hit us up @ISMJPodcast on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter. Again, that's @ISMJPodcast. iOkay, let's get back to it.

Shereetha J.  13:24  
What keeps coming up for me while I'm listening is that the only way that we really are able to even have some sort of input here is because of the internet and social media. Trina when you bring up Michael Jackson or you bring up James Brown and even bringing up "Ms. Jackson" by OutKast what's different, you know, 20 years ago, social media wasn't on and poppin. So I'm wondering how this song really would have connected with people, because Big Boi really did come hard for his baby mama on this song.

Unknown Speaker  14:00  
Basically, call her a low down gutter snipe. And Dre came at it you know nicer. Not necessarily softer but nicer than what Big Boi was putting in. So if you put social media in his context like how much bigger would this song be? How many more people would it have connected with? Throwing it back at you guys in talking about Beyonce and Jay Z and having this relatability now. Beyonce and Jay Z went through this fairly recent and they chose to capitalize off of it and make bank but what's different here is yes, Beyonce hurting. And yeah, she has different resources to heal. But if this was 20 years ago, I can't say that we would have cared or even had the commentary for it. Like we do now. 

Trina  14:44  
Well, you know, I don't know about I'm sorry, Miss Jackson. If this song came out now versus 20 years ago. I feel like black feminists will come for it because ultimately, I think it can be read as a misogynistic song. Like it can be read as a song that is being hostile toward black women, particularly, your baby's Mama and your baby's Mama's Mama. And so I feel like there are a lot of people who will come for come for this this piece through a feminist lens that did not come for it 20 years ago. And while they are free to feel what they feel having two men sing this song about two women. I think it would, it would it would be more problematic now if it were released now than it was 20 years ago. 

Dee  15:30  
Can I ask why would this all be considered misogynistic? And if you do consider it that way. Why would you consider this misogynistic?

Shereetha J.  15:39  
For me in any relations to that and like I said, it is more so about Big Boi's verses. At the same time, he's just expressing himself. I think one thing that we really picked up on in our initial episode was this concept of you know, apologizing without having to demean oneself. Big Boi and Dre were coming from a perspective of, how we phrase it Trina? Of being an ain't shit black man--being treated as such. And so having not just your baby's mama but you baby's mama's mama come after you and attacked you. Them standing up for themselves, which that's how I initially took on this have always kind of sat with it. Is them kind of taking the stance of like okay I'm gonna be there for my kid but I'm not gonna have to deal with your shit. I'm not gonna put up with being mistreated. 

Shereetha J.  16:33  
Now present day of course, yeah, wouldn't it'd be better--and I'm using air quotes here--for him to have you know said it a little bit nicer. Did he have to say you know, you know my dick is all in your girl's mouth. But it's the music. It's the culture. Not you know sidestepping it. And that's that's how I always kind of sat with this song. I know #MeToo. And just right now like we got to push forward. We got to take everything we can get, but I don't think this song was out here to demean black women as a whole. It was referring to this specific situation and that's how I took it.

Trina  17:11  
From my perspective, when we talk about cultural phenomena, or we talk about how a particular piece of art sits in culture and in popular culture, we have the two sides that we often have when we, when we talk about oppression, we talk about the personal and we talk about the structural like the institutional. And so we can look at the song as like a personal expression of this is how I feel.

Trina  17:39  
But it is also a part of a larger cultural context in which they put it out. And the reality is whether we're talking about 20 years ago or we're talking about today, it's way more acceptable for a man to say that something is wrong with a woman than for a woman to make a song about what's wrong with the man because of misogyny. Because of patriarchy. And because patriarchy exists a song about a man saying women are problematic, can sell millions and millions of records. While if a black woman did the same thing, particularly in this R&B, 40 year old hip hop, hip hop culture, which is largely dominated by men, we'd have all kinds of people, men and women coming for a black woman who said, black men are problematic and say, well, look at all those statistics about black men. You just need to tell them their kings, we need to support them. We need to always ride for black men. And my question becomes, when do black men ride for us? We've been riding for black men, since before enslavement throughout the civil rights movement. Everybody said you know get the black man his freedom. We've been riding for black men throughout the war on drugs and the war on poverty and the war on crimes. The war on poverty really demonized black women with the idea of the welfare queen and baby's mama drama was specifically about black women who are working class or poor and who were rachet.

Trina  19:00  
We were not talking about Whitley, from Different World, we're talking about a particular type of black woman that was coded by by race, class and gender. And so for men to put out a song, at the end of the 20th century, beginning of the 21st century, the dynamics haven't changed much where men can talk shit about women, and get accolades for being honest and expressing their feelings. Because we can say this is just interpersonal. While not paying attention to what it means structurally or broadly in the culture that there are way more songs about men saying women and shit than there are about women saying men ain't shit that get promoted. 

Dee  19:42  
I know the societal pressures and how society will flip shit to make black women look a certain way or make black man look a certain way. And then we perpetuate that, you know, it could be problematic. 

Shereetha J.  19:54  
Again, I really drive home that it's crazy what time will do/ Because no doubt this is a classic and it is a good song. Just as a whole, like it brought so much to the table. Now we have social media we have the internet we have so many ways of consuming this. Because also this song was a part of a bigger body of work. It was a part of the Stankonia album. You know back then you were making albums. It was a whole body of work. Now it's about the single. So if this was released as a single something just to put out quick consumption, you want to get as many streams as possible. Let's think about it, 20 years ago, we weren't able to just go and pull up lyrics. 

Trina  20:42  
Yeah, you unless you had the CD. (laughter)

Shereetha J.  20:45  
Yeah, you had to buy the album and if the artists were willing to put it in the notes actually put the lyrics in there then you could you could check it out. 

Trina  20:55  
At some point if we ever come back around to this long and I suspect that some anniversary edition, we will. You bringing up this is a part of an album and looking at the whole album of Stankonia I wonder if I will change my opinions about this song if I looked at it within the context of the album?

Dee  21:14  
Most of the rap back then, I mean, most of the rap now and R&B too, when you think about it all of it is, "bitches and hoes". Don't nobody and like you said Trina, and I've said this. I can't even count how many times I've said this,  on when is the black man gonna stand up for the black woman? When we've been riding for him? Since we've been A1 since day one. When Will someone be like we love her too? Like, you don't love me how I love you and it shows. 

Trina  21:43  
Yeah, but this is the struggle so much in the Black Lives Matter movement right now is we are struggling with you know, say her name. That you know whenever we tell the story about Black Lives Matter. We're talking about police brutality against black men, right. And they come for our asses too.

Trina  22:01  
We still try to get something to happen for Breonna Taylor. Like there's so many black women who have been who've been harmed or killed through police brutality and and, and honestly through significant other like in partner violence as well like which we are rarely talking about that when we talk about particularly black trans women, black women in particular. When we are getting our asses beat and we're being killed by domestic partners, it is black men who are doing that to us. And we are not having that conversation as much because patriarchy says we need to put black men out there and protect them. Our our language, and our conversations need to be about protecting black men. And yes, we do. We do need to protect black men and we need black men to ride for us and protect us like we're equals. So and I just think that we we haven't gotten there yet. 

Trina  22:47  
We're trying but we haven't.  It is absolutely the hardest thing in working with chaplains just showing up at protests is getting black men who are clergy to show up. And ostensibly This is about black men, but they don't want to show up and follow the leadership of Black Lives Matter movement. Which is largely black women, and black, queer and trans people. Black heterosexual men, cisgender. heterosexual men do not want to see the rest of us in charge. And so the hardest folks to get out there are black men who already have community leadership, because they're used to being the ones who get the mic. So what they look like getting the mic behind a black gay man? What they look like getting the mic behind the black trans woman or doing what she told them to do?

Dee  23:30  
To me, this goes back to this one particular thing in slavery that has continued on. It honestly, was the best strategy that anyone could have ever come up with, which is to divide and conquer. It's the best strategy anyone could have ever come up with because it has worked in and it works now. No matter what the difference is. We want to divide ourselves in order to conquer ourselves. Take into account like my brother. 

Dee  23:58  
There's no way he's gonna follow a man that puts on makeup. There's no way, whether they're talking about the same issue and fighting for the same things. There's no way.

Trina  24:13  
But the thing is that man who puts on makeup will die for him. 

Trina  24:17  
Absolutely. But there is no way, you hear me? Not one way it's happening. And the reason that is it comes back to divide and conquer. What's the major difference here? Who I spend my personal time with? Why does that matter? You know,  what I mean? Who I spend my personal time with has nothing to do with you. These issues that we face out on the streets are the same issues. So why are we not fighting together?

Interlude (Trina)  24:43  
Have some other episodes lined up, and I'm excited to get feedback from other folks on Patreon and Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, when they hear some of the conversations that we've been having with folks. And I hope we can garner even more awesome guest as we make this path together.

Trina  25:01  
The baseline, I mean and I feel like people are hesitant to say this just is as honestly as it is. They don't see that black man who puts on makeup his life is not as valuable as mine. 

Shereetha J.  25:15  
I want to echo that. That is really a big part of the movement right now and saying that Black Lives Matter. It's not these certain Black Lives Matter, Black Trans Lives Matter. Black LGBT, all of it again goes back to your point b it is about dividing and conquering. We can't see it as a collective George Floyd. Absolutely. A tragic situation. Still processing still grieving over that. Yet again, BREONNA TAYLOR. Where is the Justice for her? 

Dee  25:50  
When we don't arrest them sons of bitches? Period point blank. 

Trina  25:55  
Technically what they did is not illegal. 

Dee  25:57  
I'm sick of it. I mean we can't be balls to the wall for one person and not the same for someone else. Killed in her fucking sleep. That shit is ridiculous. 

Shereetha J.  26:09  
It could be any one of us. We just had and correct me, I believe that it's been either four or five years since the anniversary of Sandra Bland dying, 

Dee  26:22  
And that's still some bullshit

Shereetha J.  26:24  
Absolutely. And that could have happened to either one of us. 

Trina  26:28  
Yeah. Yeah.

Dee  26:29  
Facts. Until there is something which can connect those who are seen as "different" in the black community. I just don't see how we're going to be able to mesh ourselves back together. Because the man who wears makeup, he's still a man. And he's still discriminated against. At the end of the day people are fucking with him just like people that gonna fuck with just some old dude who walking down the street. Like, we've got to figure out the commonality there which there are plenty. 

Dee  26:59  
There's got to be something that brings the people together just like with white core people have more in common with black people than they do with rich whites but they always side with the rich whites. Why is that? We have more in common than we do differences and we got to find a way to show those commonalities to each other so we can fight together against the bullshit.

Shereetha J.  27:24  
I'm in 100% agreeance with you on us you know coming together. It just came up for me in talking about Sandra Bland and The reality is  Sandra Bland is dead because she came off as an angry black woman. So when talking about coming together, one of the things that's coming up is we can come together but you got to be this you you can't you got to put your cigarette out. You can't talk back. You can't curse you can't be too direct. You got to make people feel like they're telling you the answer but you're the one who came up with it.

Dee  28:09  
First of all, that's what you do in a marriage to a man anyway. You understand me? You are massaging him into the direction you want things to go. And he like, you know, and I say we don't do this and then you know, worked out. The whole while you like nigga you ain't did shit! You ain't come up with nothing. 

Trina  28:29  
But this is the problem like this is patriarchy encapsulated that we coddle black boys and black men too. But by the time they become adults they expect that. And so they get into a work situation and expect women to do their work for them. They expect women to coddle them and make them think that shit was their idea. When we married them, they expect us to coddle their egos. We have equals too. 

Trina  28:51  
We have we been raised to notice but we get trained as women that we need to do this for them and then we get these man children as adults who expet all of those things. And say this as a person who, you know, I'm not raising any children, but I raised five boys, my brothers, and it's a struggle like it was a struggle with between me and my mama. And I'm asking, why are you treating them differently? You make me work hard for everything I do. But you coddle them. We have all of these narratives about boys not being able to cry and all those things. And that's important too, because we try to beat them into manhood, but girls get trained to be women who have low standards for men. And so when we continue to perpetuate those things they expect the most by giving the least. 

Dee  29:37  
That's a whole word. It's so true.

Trina  29:39  
At some point, we as women have to decide to stop doing that because we are perpetuating that more than anybody else. Protecting our boys so that they become men who expect protection from women. When when people see a man just just doing the bare minimum childcare, we say Oh, he's such a good dad. He's such a good father. Well, women are like losing their lives over, you know, they don't have a public life. They don't have a community life when they are raising and nurturing and caring for kids. And people will barely acknowledge that that's work. 

Dee  30:10  
These are nothing but facts that you speak. Just know at this residence here. It's just not how it goes down. (laughter)

Dee  30:16  
You got to start somewhere. And we're starting at this residence here, because I don't let, I don't let, my husband get away with thinking any of these things are just soley his idea, because we are a household and so we came up with these ideas together, numero uno. And further you know, you got to take you got you got to have some sort of onus on raising your children and making sure that the expectations for one is expectations for all and I totally 100% agree with everything that you just spoke on. Because this facts.  

Dee  30:53  
It used to be a thing like few years back like you know, strong black woman, you so strong, you know, you not gonna get a man. And it's like, brother. Okay. That's fine. Because there is a man out here for me. And it's not a man, guess what it will be a woman.

Trina  31:15  
 Another competent adult! Or a few competent adults.

Dee  31:18  
Come on with a few. Yes, ma'am! Because you know fuckery is fuckery. I don't care who it's coming from. That's fuckery and I'm not gonna deal with it. And if you don't want to be on the same level as me, and rising higher, then we just not gonna work. 

Trina  31:36  
Yeah, this equation does not balance out.

Shereetha J.  31:40  
Pimpin', thank you so much for joining us in this space. We want to close it out with one more question. So if you were Ms. Jackson, how would you respond to this...well, what's now a classic track?

Dee  31:55  
I mean, if I were I was this woman. I feel like in anything, you got to self reflect. You got to be self reflective of the things that you've done, or the situations that you are in or you go through.

Dee  32:12  
You are just as responsible for any situation as anyone else. Especially when it comes to children. You gotten yourself in a situation just like they have too. So being self reflective and making sure you hold others accountable, but hold yourself accountable at the same standard too because so many people who are willing to point the finger but don't pull the thumb back at themselves. And have the same level of accountability for them. You want someone to cook clean and mow grass and take up trash, but you don't even wash your ass properly.

Dee  32:53  
You got to have that same level of accountability for self. And then you can push that level of accountability outward. And so if this song is to me, first, I'm looking at me and seeing what have I done to make the situation this way? Because a lot of people try to deflect feelings of other people. And he feels this way for a reason. Now, is there something that could have that you could have contributed to that? Self reflect and see. No one is solely responsible. I wouldn't say they Miss Jackson is solely responsible. But she played her part to. And she's got to figure out you know, is this the person that she wants to be? Is this the woman she wants to continue to grow into?

Dee  33:39  
Self reflection is key for me, self reflect and hold myself accountable, just like I want to hold someone else accountable too.

Trina  33:46  
Wow, thank you that is some of the most mature shit I've heard in a long time. Like plain and simple, mature.

Dee  33:55  
 Sometimes I am mature, sometimes. Sometimes I get it right.

Shereetha J.  34:00  
I personally do appreciate you saying yes, and just being here. You're part of the reason why we're able to do what we're doing. By bringing the truth and also just being my best friend. So a lot of these ideas and conversations come from conversations and moments that we've had together. So I appreciate you offering yourself up to be in this space. So thank you. 

Dee  34:26  
Yeah, I'm happy to be here. When people can get to know me, they'll know that I'm not meanest bitch in world...but I can be, you know. (laughter) And you know, I'm able to, to really have some conversation in which it's intellectual conversation like, Trina and I didn't agree on on a topic a little while back, but it wasn't something in which we had to agree on you know. You don't have to agree. But you can be adults about the situation and have a conversation about it. This is a platform in which, you know, it's adults coming to the table. Nobody's saying this is the way it's going to be. And that's that. 

Trina  35:05  
I believe Shereetha calls that deliberative dialogue. 

Shereetha J.  35:08  
You just got to have the conversations so anyone can make this space. You just got to be willing to enter into it with the same mentality that you just offered up. That's it.

Dee  35:20  
Y'all done good, man.

Shereetha J.  35:22  
Appreciate it, Pimpin'.

Interlude (Shereetha)  35:27  
You just heard from my best friend Dee. Up next we have two more dope individuals Kim and Dennis, who just happened to be Episcopal priests. Join us as they share their thoughts on faith, apology culture, hip hop and gospel. Okay, let's get back to it. 

Trina  35:47  
So, part of why we wanted to invite y'all is the thing that I have in common is that you're both Episcopal priest and clergy. So we've been having conversations  with a few different folks about this song and our podcast broadly. And and the question that I hear the most is what the hell is apology culture? Like, because what is the culture around apology is really what the question is. And we're still developing that in this country. We're seeing lots of public apologies, and some are better than others. Frankly, we're seeing what the next phase of cancel canceled culture is evolving right now. And folks who are in the kind of work that y'all do deal a lot with repentance and forgiveness, and redemption, and how to do apologies and how not to do apology like y'all deal with people as they're figuring out what are the ethical ramifications of fucking up. And so we thought it would be good to talk to y'all about this. 

Kim  36:54  
Well, I'll start I'm also a Jackson. So I guess this is in some way a namesake song for me too. I am the Reverend Kim Jackson. I'm an Episcopal priest. And that's probably my day and by night I am married to one of the hosts to Trina on this podcast and I live on a farm and I happen to also be striving to become a politician. I'm running for State Senate in Georgia, just won my primary and now waiting for the general so I like to dabble in religion and politics a lot.

Dennis  37:37  
Hey. I am a black man which is really becoming more important for me to say these days because sometimes I hold that back to make other people feel comfortable. I am a black man. I am the son of Dennis and Annie. Dennis senior foster child who worked his way through whatever his circumstance was to get to where he needed to go. I am the son of Annie Patterson, who is a middle school dropout, who did the same. Moved her way to where she needs to be. Somehow they created a family I'm the brother of Jeremy Patterson, JP.  I'm a father. I am a husband.

Dennis  38:30  
I am a child of hip hop. I moved hip hop. I live hip hop.

Dennis  38:37  
I talk hip hop and I see the world through the lens of, of hip hop.

Dennis  38:44  
And I am a priests serving the people of the Church of the Holy Cross. I am that and so much more. But all that is called Dennis Patterson. Thank you so much for having me here.

Trina  39:01  
And should a passed the plate right then?

Shereetha J.  39:08  
So, what about this song resonates with you? 

Dennis  39:12  
When I first heard it, I mean, at the very basic level, I remember I remember my cousin picking me up.And he's going through a relationship.No the relationship was over. And he, he picked me up. And we had about a 20 minute drive. And he bumped it the entire time. He he had it on repeat.

Dennis  39:41  
And, you know, when I when I saw that I knew what was going on in the background, but at the, you know, first person hearing of it, it's about relationship. I think at the core. It's about relationship, the bumps, the bruises. You know, recognizing that maybe it's better if you're apart. Recognizing the trials that you've been through and ultimately moving on. So I think that that was what I was first introduced when I was first introduced to it. That was what, what jumped out at me.

Trina  40:23  
Yeah, I think for me. So having last name Jackson, I heard this song. So I was in high school when this came out. And so I heard it a lot. The chorus, you know, "I'm sorry, Miss Jackson" was something that people always just say in the hallway. And I grew up in context, where I didn't listen to pop music, and it was not allowed to really listen to hip hop and things like that. So for a long time, all I knew was those few words that people would holler at me in the hallway. "I'm sorry, Miss Jackson". 

Kim  40:58  
I didn't know anything about what it meant other than that there was this kind of what sounded like to me a tongue in cheek apology. Right? Because all I had was that little clip and the toon sounds like they're mocking you. It doesn't sound sincere. So, you know, as I've grown up and I've been able to hear the larger context to the music, I think I have a more and more a deeper analysis. But I do still resonate with that beginning piece of the tone of the apology still sounds somewhat of a mockery of the notion of apologizing.

Kim  41:45  
And broader than that, though, I think that the the sort of speak so I think powerfully to the role that extended families play in relationships and relationship dynamics, right. This is not just about the baby mom and the dude, this is also about a grandmama. And she's playing a significant role in their ups and their downs. And so I think OutKast does a really great job of kind of highlighting the ways that relationships don't operate just in a bubble between two people. But that there is an extended family that's a play as well. 

Unknown Speaker  42:22  
So

Dennis  42:24  
When you apologize to somebody mom it's deep. Apologizing to Mama, and you know, you got to pay attention right. You got to pay attention to who's absent. If you're not talking to, we don't know what's going on with her. He's dealing with mom and I think that's something we should attention to.

Shereetha J.  42:44  
This is the first time that we actually referred to Miss Jackson as someone's grandmother. In and talking about this song. We've always just kind of said, you know, my baby's mama's mama it's his baby's Mama's mama. Haven't said Grandma, my grandmother, Grandma, so it really brings it home in a way, it makes her more human more plain, more touchable. More than this concept of just this idea out here that I got this baby's Mama's Mama, that's driving me crazy. This is a grandmother. 

Kim  43:26  
Yes, she's the grandmother and the story. And I think that there are a lot of stereotypes that are getting played into around what are the motivations behind Miss Jackson's actions. So, you know, he talks about how she wants to get a piece of American Pie. She's treating this grandbaby like he's a paycheck, which just plays into all of these stereotypes. And I do think fundamentally diminishes the value of her as being a grandmother and the grandmothers I think, by nature have a deep desire to make sure that their grandchildren are protected or cared for. Are not left hanging and certainly not left deserted. And so he has a particular view in which I don't think he sees her at all as a grandmother, but simply as the baby's Mama's Mama, who's causing drama. And it's just kind of living into a lot of these stereotypes around how black women treat black men, at least in his mind. 

Trina  44:26  
So what the sorry mean, in this context?

Dennis  44:30  
I don't think it's sorry, things are gonna get better. I think it's Sorry, I'm freeing myself from this. There's, not an opportunity. In fact, I think he ends it with, you know, the hell with you and your mama or something like that, right? (laughter)

Dennis  44:48  
He wasn't looking for reconciliation. He was looking for freedom in a sense. He was identifying the stuff that went on within the relationship, but he was also saying, you know, this is this is probably not healthy. And so I need to, I need to move on. So I think he had enough respect to acknowledge that. I, you know, when I was thinking about this, I also thought both Andre and Big Boi grew up with mothers. Right? It's interesting that they decided to...with only mothers, with single mothers. Right. And so the song is really an apology to single mothers. 

Dennis  45:35  
And, you know, I think we can go deep with that in terms of, you know, who would say I really apologizing to? Are they apologizing to mom? You know, is it deeper than what we see on the surface, I think that's something to consider as well. And that's why I can see it as a respectful thing, because both of them come out of that. And so out of respect for their mother, the situation that they've been a part of they to have to recognize. Yeah, let me let me apologize. However, you know, it won't work. 

Trina  46:09  
This theme of being apologetic to black women, particularly black mamas, is that a theme consonant in hip hop?

Dennis  46:21  
I would say, you know, hip hop is still fairly young. Rap is still fairly young. We're talking about rap specifically, and it is still fairly young. I think what we've seen over the time, as it has matured, and people have mature that day that they've grown up. We've always known that hip hop is a reflection of what happens in the culture, how people talk, and so it reflects a certain part of their reality. I think hip hop has grown up and some artists choose to take it in another direction. We have conscious rappers, right? That really pay attention to what they say and how they say it and they're they're mature and trying to mentor the other rappers. But I don't think it's a perfect fit right I mean Tupac he said "Dear Mama" then on the other hand say bitch and hoe and all of it. So that was just a part of the culture but I think through time I think it's mature and people are really paying attention.

Interlude (Shereetha)  47:32  
Please go in and press that like button. Show us some love. Give us a 5 star rating on whatever platform you're listening to us on. We appreciate you. Again we can't do this on our own. We need you guys.

Interlude (Trina)  47:46  
Tell your friends.  

Interlude (Shereetha)  47:47  
Your mama them. Your cousin them. Your coworkers you're sitting on these remote meetings with. And you're not really paying attention but you cool with one of them. Go ahead and send them a message with a link to our podcast. And say, check them out!  

Interlude (Trina)  48:03  
Right, tell your enemies. We don't mind.

Kim  48:07  
I want to go back to the Dennis talking about this apology, how it takes how it's something special when somebody apologizes to the mama. And yeah, I'm just not clear. I'm not convinced that...let me say this when I coach people on how to make apologies, this is not the kind of way that I would encourage someone to apologize. So, I won't question the sincerity because he does say I am for real. (laughter)

Kim  48:36  
I won't question the sincerity of the apology. But I do want to critique the content of the apology, because what he does is he takes the opportunity he says this is the lyrics, like I didn't get the opportunity to tell my side. So this is him telling his side. This is him, explaining what his intentions were, all of the things. It's not what I would call  just a clean, unadulterated apology. It's not, "I hurt you. I'm sorry." Which I think is a whole apology. Or we want to use some repentance language, "I hurt you, I'm sorry. And therefore I will do this. 

Kim  49:18  
That is not what he gives us here. Instead he gives us a, "you had some expectations grandmama that I'm not meeting and that's kind of on you because you can't help it if it rains. And meanwhile, I'm gonna do me. And if you want to keep fighting with me, my lawyers are on lock ready for you. I'm sorry that disappointed you. I'm sorry things are working out for you. But here's my side." And so sure is an apology. But it's not a good apology. (laughter)

Dennis  49:54  
Yeah, yeah, it's certainly wouldn't be an apology that would be accepted in my church. For me when when we start talking about the culture, right? You know, when we start talking about the culture and what the hip hop culture, what presents and the way again that I mentioned that they move and do things. I mean, if we if we look at it, it says, you know, sorry Miss Jackson and you know, we can't skate over the fact that I am for real, right. Today we'd say real talk. Just imagine the way that he's moving with this. "I never meant to make the daughter cry, I apologize a trillion times." That's a hell of an apology for a brother in a certain culture. 

Dennis  50:46  
That is not even allowed to show who they are how they feel. Right? And so it's not a super apology. But what I look at is, well damn, he took the time, right that's what I mean by he took the time to engage mom because I didn't even have to come to you I don't even have to deal with you. My relationship is between me and and your daughter or whoever, but for him to take this opportunity in a culture that doesn't you know is tough we don't cry we don't show weakness we don't do so. So it is out of that that I say, Well it means something, right? Because other people wouldn't and so it's not wrapped in I think in what it should be wrapped in and like I said it wouldn't fly in church or something. But I do acknowledge the fact that was there.

Kim  51:43  
Dennis, do you think this apology would even matter to Miss Jackson?

Dennis  51:48  
We don't know Miss Jackson probably cussed his ass out. Had a foul mouth just like him. I mean, how do we know that he wasn't responding to somebody that was talking crap. We've seen it right. We've experienced it. And so that doesn't make it right. It doesn't make right. But at the same time, you know, Miss Jackson probably had her version that we didn't hear.

Trina  52:16  
But the funny thing is when we've been having these conversations, and I think this is so much about patriarchy, and misogyny, that people want to give men the benefit of the doubt. And the fact that we never hear Miss Jackson's side, like OutKast is the one with the mics. Hip Hop is largely men, that definitely a female and feminine components. But it's largely men who hold the mics and we don't get to hear Miss Jackson's side of the story. But so far, everybody we've talked to about this want to give men the benefit of the doubt and I think it says something about our culture black folks. 

Trina  52:51  
But culture broadly, that we are inclined, partially because they're telling their story like it's like the fundamental elements of law. Whoever gets to tell their story first is most likely to be believed. And even though as Kim pointed out, this is Big Boi, and really Big Boi and Andre really getting to tell his side of the story. In a court of law, His story is the only one we get to hear. And so I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily like this is just a lyrical analysis. But it's it seems consistent to me, as we talk about this, everybody is willing to give the first storyteller who happens to be a man and nobody ever fails to bring up the gender dynamics here, that he is a man talking about a woman or talking about women. And everybody has been clear that we should give OutKast the benefit of the doubt.

Dennis  53:34  
 Mm hmm. 

Kim  53:42  
I'm pushing back not to give the benefit of the doubt. But to actually say, I, I hear that black men have not been raised in a culture in which they can necessarily talk about their feelings and where it is certainly a step to even utter the words "I'm sorry or  I apologize". But I'm just not willing to give him cookies for what was fundamentally a half ass apology. And I think actually, I think that if it was less than apology is more of a backhanded, shit happens. Get over it. Yes, I hear Oh, there's some vulnerability because he says these words I and you know, when you read it, Dennis, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make your daughter cry, I'm for real. Sure that sincere. And then there's all this other stuff. I mean, he's really demeaning and degrading to the person that he allegedly is authentically apologetic towards. And I think that we have lived in a culture that has allowed those kinds of apologies to be acceptable, because people kind of say, Oh, well, they said they're sorry. Yeah. Well, they said, I'm sorry. They called you a bitch at the same time. And so that's, I think, why I'm pushing back and saying like, I'm just not wanting to get home cookies for making a half ass at best apology.

Dennis  55:05  
Yeah. What is it? Good apology?

Shereetha J.  55:09  
Great question.

Kim  55:12  
So I think about like a rite of reconciliation or just confession, that would be the language that Catholics use, but as part of this process that we invite people to go into in which they named before a priests, their sins. And, and there's this moment where we invite them to say, you know, what is it that you would like to confess? And in the end, you know, there's supposed to be some priestly counsel that comes with it to help folks. But I think in the end, there's this moment where, where we tell people to turn to do something different, right? To repent. So you You've acknowledged that you made this shortcoming. You made this fall. And so now go and fix it. And I think for me, that's, that's what I would hope for and apology, or at least go and live your life differently. Go and live your life like you, like you realize that, that it's actually better for you to not commit the same thing again. To me that is important. That's an important aspect of key to apology. And that takes time, right? That means that the process is not done. The moment that you say, I'm sorry, that means that there's, there's more time asked to be put into living into that sorriness or remorse.

Kim  56:45  
What do you think, Dennis?

Dennis  56:47  
I don't know. That's why I was asking the question. And I'm back on the Big Boi thing and so if it is a process, and not necessarily work, right. Add the words...at the end of the words, he then begin the process of apologizing. That's what it sounds like that you need to go away and do something different. Right? I was just, I'm trying to get a sense of what would have been, I'm sticking with the song, what would have made that a right apology in that moment? That's what I'm trying to get a sense of.

Kim  57:27  
Yeah. So I think what would an apology look like in this context of the song? I think it looks like OutKast saying, "I have caused harm to you. I have hurt you, Miss Jackson. And I apologize for that. And I hear you or I see that you are disappointed. I see that you've taken actions that indicate that you don't, that you don't trust me. I see that you've been hurt. And I'm sorry." Full stop.

Kim  58:01  
No, no explaining all of the reasons why he had the best intentions and, you know, shit just happens and, you just ran drama into my life and tell me, no explaining. It's non defensive. Right. So sure everybody has their own side. But I think when it comes to going to a person and saying, I'm sorry, like it has to be about that person. That to me is a full and authentic apology, but I'm not sure it makes for a good song. (laughter)

Interlude (Shereetha)  58:39  
What makes a good apology? We'd love to hear your thoughts. Hit us up at is @ISMJPodcast on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. Again, @ISMJPodcast. You know the drill. Let's get back to it.

Trina  58:57  
One of the things that came up for me When Kim said a fault, it made me think about geology. Right? So we have these fault lines around with, we see earthquakes. And a fault line is really like a fracture in the earth. And what is happening is either the earth and that place is pulling apart, or it's pushing together and it's changing the landscape. And I think for our relationships, often when we, when a fault happens, and we're in conflict, our goals are often to go back, especially when we talk about reconciliation, we're often talking about going back to where we were. And when a fault happens in geography, you can never get it back. Like even if that land is touching land to land again, there's still a crack there. It can never be restored to exactly what it is it creates a new formation and so you learn to live with the ne formation that is there, you move away from it, or you build farther out from it, or you treat it differently than you treated it before that fault erupted. You treat it as a fault as a fault line like as a as a fault zone. 

Trina  1:00:15  
And I think what happens when I am in conversations about apologies or about repentance, or especially when we're using the word reconciliation, and even reparations, because you know, Asheville, North Asheville, North Carolina city council just passed some ordinances around reparations for black people in Asheville. Like they're putting money in the pot, they offer the apology. But when we talk about reparations, we're talking about repairing something but how can you repair something that started off broken like you were, we're looking for something completely new. 

Trina  1:00:53  
And so I think that we have to figure out how to get our hands around, not trying to go back but to help A new relationship to the fault line then we have to treat it differently than we treated before and I think this kind of gets into the conversation of repentance of doing something different. And so I don't know like Kim said like what kind of song that would be or this may not be the part of the process that they're trying to get at this song but when I think about what is in apology, yes, the unmitigated unadulterated I caused harm I'm sorry, is there anything I can do to fix it? Full stop. And within that, anything I can do to fix it? Not trying to make it like it was before because it can't go back. You cannot go back in reverse. And so that when I think about apology, I start thinking about in Islam we'll say that the earth is giving us signs about how do we deal with conflict?

Dennis  1:01:54  
What does this song have to offer us as we talked about relationships to each other, especially during these times we were talking about relationships between different races?

Trina  1:02:05  
Well Dennis, I will say that you're asking the questi that we try to ask as we are formulating the programming as having conversations with each other. The third question is about relationships, right? How does the song address our themes that we're constantly thinking about of regret and remorse, release, resolve redemptiom. So those things are about relationship. And so, yeah, you're asking the exact question that we ask. That's why we have this podcast because fundamentally, it's about relationships.

Kim  1:02:41  
I feel like one of the things that I learned from this OutKast song is just how messy relationships are. And I wonder how things would be different if we accepted that messiness, and instead of trying to resist it, right, instead of trying to make it be the perfect picnic? How would relationships be if we just accepted that along the way, we're gonna hurt one another, sometimes we're going to disappoint each other. But this is like part and parcel to what it means to be in relationship because I, I'm sorry, Miss Jackson is I mean, particularly when you add the video on top of it, it is a clear expression of just how messy and complicated and hard and unpredictable, as Trina mentioned, how out of control relationships can be. And so, and I look at that song to say, oh, what if I just know that's par for the course? How would that make me live my life differently? 

Trina  1:03:46  
So I'm, I'm smiling to myself and laughing because I'm like, Yes, the unpredictability is there, but that's not a reason to not still plan a pretty picnic.

Dennis  1:03:57  
Appreciate the candor. Because even even in the messiness, when it comes to race relations when it comes to having a difficult conversation, I take the Big Boi method anyday. I think that we're too nice. When it comes to having a conversation about things that matters. I think what he is what he is doing, or what he shows us, he's releasing.  You know I'm looking at Trump, I'm looking at all the crap that's going on in the world and I'm releasing. I'm cussing just like him. When I'm in the house. Nobody knows it's not platinum record. (laughter)

Dennis  1:04:44  
But I think that those conversations, those conversations have to happen. In that way. We've all been privy to conversations and part of conversations with people are being too nice. And I think that's where Hip Hop has. I think that's where hip hop has the advantage. It's not all real. But if the theme is we're real, and so they don't run from, they don't run from the mess. They don't run from ickiness of, and honestly, I believe hip hop has contributed more to this culturethan a lot of institution and a lot of progress. And including the church and I'm a part of a church but as we go through it.  But I think that there's something there the candor and the realness that that he brings to it when we're talking about larger relationships, because you know what, sometimes you gotta scream. Sometimes you can, you gotta say, if you can't see it this way, and get the hell on you and your folk and your constituency.

Trina  1:05:55  
I appreciate your your hip hop ethic of engagement. around race. I think that you're right that unlike many other institutions, hip hop and the folks who live in hip hop culture and creat it have never stepped away from, generally speaking, have never shied away from a conversation about race and racism, which is something new to this country. We don't have another medium. We don't have another cultural expression that has dealt as directly with race and racism as hip hop. I think you're really right that it is an institution that has led the way on that and has not been credited with it. 

Dennis  1:06:42  
Yeah. Well, remember, remember Ice Cube said, "Fuck the Police" all long before we were trying to defund the police. How long ago was that? Right? And we're getting here we're finally at the place where we can scream defund the police hen they were yelling "Fuck the Police" 30 years ago?

Kim  1:07:08  
I want to just like the one area of expertise that I bring in terms of music is the area of gospel music. And I want to highlight, like, what Dennis is raised as one of the shortcomings, I think of the church and gospel music. Which is that gospel music has often been not a truth telling experience of today's current reality, but a foretelling of the foretaste that we will receive when we reach our heavenly reward. And so I think that some of the truth telling that is absolutely necessary for us to move forward is often I think, missing from from church and probably particularly church music.

Kim  1:07:58  
And sometimes it's a gloss like things are bad so let's talk about how great our reward will be, as opposed to saying things are bad in this way. XYZ, right? And letting that even just be full stop not not even having to resolve it. Right. And gospel music I think we've just really failed to do that. There's I song where, you know, Hurricane Katrina has happened, and somebody's grandmama sick in the dome, and then he Pampers and all of the like sadness, all of it gets resolved because of God. 

Kim  1:08:35  
But what if we told what if we sang a gospel song in which Pampers didn't arrive? What if we sign a gospel song, where is the gospel in that? Can we find the gospel in the song in which grandmama doesn't get the medication that she needed for her sugar, and she dies, right? That's where I think the church has really fallen short or is not truth telling, not letting the horrible realities of systemic oppression and racism to be named and for us to have to just sit with them. But instead, we always, always turn our heads for Glory, and not even people away within the church to express just how difficult this current life is. 

Dennis  1:09:22  
It's for that very reason that I literally view rap as gospel. it's my gospel music I love gospel music. It deals with the trenches, it deals with the ups and downs of life. It deals with truth. If that's not gospel then I don't know what is.

Interlude (Shereetha)  1:09:50  
Thank you for listening to "I'm Sorry Ms. Jackson Podcast": a lyrical analysis of love, faith, apology culture, and The Movement. I'm Shereetha J. Trina, why don't you tell them how that can keep up with us.  

Interlude (Trina)  1:10:04  
You can find us on Twitter. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on Patreon. Please patronize us on Patreon. You can look us up @ismjpodcast on Patreon, Instagram, and Twitter.  

Interlude (Shereetha)  1:10:17  
And Facebook! Please, support The Movement.  

Interlude (Trina)  1:10:21  
Support it! 

Outro Music: Everyday I Think Of You (I Am For Real)