(((JUSTICE FOR BREONNA TAYLOR))) Join Trina and Shereetha J. as they begin their path towards Lyrical Liberation while discussing Ms. Jackson by OutKast and the rap duo's desire to make amends without demeaning themselves. Also in this episode, Trina and Shereetha J. touch on how this song speaks to the unpredictability of The Movement, e.g., the killings of Rayshard Brooks and Secoriea Turner; as well as, question the intentions behind increased police presence in SWATS.
(((JUSTICE FOR BREONNA TAYLOR))) Join Trina and Shereetha J. as they begin their path towards Lyrical Liberation while discussing Ms. Jackson by OutKast and the rap duo's desire to make amends without demeaning themselves. Also in this episode, Trina and Shereetha J. touch on how this song speaks to the unpredictability of The Movement, e.g., the killings of Rayshard Brooks and Secoriea Turner; as well as, question the intentions behind increased police presence in SWATS.
Shereetha J. 0:21
It's a good day to be happy, healthy, whole and free. And I'm hoping that this platform will be a way to achieve that. Who you be, Trina?
Trina 0:35
Well, as my bio says on the profile, I'm a sometime-y DJ, who has an insatiable need for rhythm and repetition. But who am I? I'm a native Georgian. I am an Imam. I am a co host for this podcast. I am a doctoral student studying social Foundation in educational policy. In particular, its implications for the intersections of critical race theory, the black radical tradition in womanist theology. I'm a farmer. And I have lots and lots of animals in my life. And lots of lots of lots and lots of fresh food. I am a queer, black Muslim woman getting my life in this world.
Shereetha J. 1:29
Out here, killing the game. That's what you're doing.
Trina 1:32
Well, thank you. Who are you, Shereetha Jackson?
Shereetha J. 1:35
I am many things. Shame enthusiast. Former youth Wrangler, music lover, cancer survivor. Just a creative. So in using all of those avenues, it's brought me here to be in the space to do the work. Because that is super important to me. Doing the work and having conversations that matter. So I get to do that here in this space, through deliberative dialogue and through connecting with dope people, so I am.
Trina 2:13
Thank you. Thank you.
Shereetha J. 2:15
You're my partner in lyrical liberation.
Trina 2:21
I receive that. So what is I'm sorry Miss Jackson.
Shereetha J. 2:24
Other than a great song made by one of the best hip hop duos of our time, the track of course is called "Ms. Jackson" and it is it is our namesake. But we are a podcast. And the goal here is to try and create the ultimate mixtape to take us towards liberation.
Trina 2:45
Yeah, "I'm Sorry Miss Jackson" is an extension of the conversations that we've been having for more than a year. Right. We started off as a writing group and my spouse accused us of not writing very much and talking a lot.
And there's some truth to that. But I think that I always look forward to our weekly writing group, because it instigated lots of writing for me after our group, because the conversations that we've had I came as a guest on your other podcast "Risking Shame" last February maybe.
Shereetha J. 3:20
Time flies.
Trina 3:21
And, yeah, it really does. And so we had a conversation on the podcast, we had so much fun. And then we were meeting on a regular basis for our writing group. And we did get some writing done, but I think that a lot of what I left with and what you left with were notes around some of the comments we made to each other and talking about politics, talking about religion and faith, talking about love, talking about canceled culture. And we had lots of notes about what do we do with these conversations?
And I think that we mutually came to the place of let's open this conversation up and share it with other people and let other people just listen to us have a good time together musing and ciphering together and invite guests into that conversation so that we can broaden it and widen it.
And so here we are in a podcast opening up our dinner table to other people, because that's where we would have, that's where were talking most of the time at our dinner table and saying, what do you think? Like not necessarily, let's solve this puzzle. That'd be great if we can. So let's get some more perspectives on what's happening here. And how do we move forward together in the best ways possible?
Shereetha J. 4:33
I so appreciate for you bringing this up. This process that we've kind of gone through. It's been very organic and being able to sit down on a weekly basis and just vibe. Certainly, has transformed the way that I look at the culture as a whole. You mentioned being at the dinner table and I want to raise up the Sankofa Dinner that we had. That experience in itself of looking back and kind of thinking and honoring our ancestors. And doing so, through music. Again, it was very transformational for me on many levels. In a way, we're bringing that here. In this space, we're connecting a love for music. You don't have to be a professor. You don't. You don't have to have any sort of acclaim to connect over the music and for black folk that's our culture or that's our thing. It is in our DNA to have a song, it moves us and so to work on this project together, I'm really honored to do that. It really has been this organic piece of us wrestling with things.
Ideally, we should all sit down and have these conversations that matter. But not everyone has a person or space to actually do that. So, again, I honor that we both were able to have this time. That's another part of it too. Making time to have these conversations. It's not always easy to do.
Trina 6:16
Well you know, I think that this part of the intellectual and emotional growth of what became this podcast, "I'm sorry Miss Jackson": a lyrical analysis of Faith, Love, Apology Culture, and The Movement, is also yes about our love for music both of our last names also Jackson, right. And so that made it feel good. We were talking about OutKast at some point around the table and that song and, you know, when when I was a teacher, my students made opportunities to say to me, "I'm sorry Ms. Jackson." And so both of us have worked with us and who were coming through when that song was still really popular and really, in the atmosphere.
And so we both gravitated towards the title because we hold that surname and in common. Also what we hold in common is analysis, right? What does it mean? What can it mean? And what is there? You know, what is already there? And what can we draw out of it. It makes me think of the story of Moses in the Hebrew Bible. That isn't a means to draw out, right? Because it is story. Mother and his sister like, Oh my goodness, we gotta get gotta hide this baby boy, because the Egyptians are gonna kill him.
So they put them in the river. And in this story, depending on which ones you follow the apocryphal stories, the Pharaoh's daughter, or wife, draws him out of the water, and his sister sets up a situation so that this wealthy person will hear this baby crying will be moved with compassion, and draw them out. And I think that part of what we're doing is trying to send a crying baby down the river, so that people who have the ears to hear will draw it out.
Shereetha J. 7:57
Yeah, I do feel like we're trying to draw it out. And in doing so we're asking important questions around liberation and more so, imagining what liberation looks like. I don't think I actually took time to do that before you and I began to have conversations around the topic. I would like to take this moment to throw back at you and ask you, what does liberation look like for you?
Trina 8:28
Well, you know, I mean, this is the crux of so much of the work that I do is imagining liberation from so many different angles. This is the essence of Afro futurism. And so I asked other people that question on a regular basis. And one of the one time when I asked some folks, I got two answers, I was having dinner with some friends. And one of them says that liberation to them looks like eating cheesecake. Right? Because they're lactose intolerant. And they feel like their health, like that inability to enjoy, milky things has been compromised by, in some ways oppression, but by the stress of living in the world as a black person.
And they're organizers and they're always kind of on this in this work, even in their dreams. They're dreaming about organizing. Dreaming about doing the work to continue being in the legacy of Harriet Tubman, even in our downtime. And so she said that her liberation, the feeling of liberation for her will be able to enjoy delicious things to eat that don't hurt her.
Someone else told me that in order to enjoy liberation, it would mean doing cartwheels because they could do those when they were younger. But again, they have it there has been a March, this person is in there, right? And there has been something in the street to do this person is in there. Now. They're in their 40s and there's just like my knees, my knees! And they're like, I wish I could be in a place where I could do cartwheels again. And then you know we could talk about biologically and chronologically what happens as we age. But what I realized when we were having that conversation, my two friends who just said the limitations in my life were causing me to lack the liberation I dream of.
And what they gave to each other the one who said that my knees hurt. They said to the person who said I wish I could have cheesecake and they said, you know that at Publix, there's a dairy free cheesecake that tastes really good. You can't even tell us not they're free, right? And the other person says, You know what I know where there is a pool, you can do cartwheels all day, any day you want to there is a free and open pool for our people. And you can go turn flips there and do cartwheels all you want to and it won't cause an impact on your knees. And so they they exchange that freedom with each other. It says, I have a piece of the puzzle for you, you have a piece of a puzzle for me. And for me, that is our practicing of liberation. There's not one thing, it's not one definition for one destination.
Freedom is a practice. Angela Davis has the book "Freedom Is A Constant Struggle", but it's an old gospel song. You know, that freedom is a constant struggle and the end of that refrain is we must be free. I've been struggling for so long. I've been struggling so long for so long. We must be free. We must be free by now. Right? But I think that liberation is a constant struggle, but it's also a constant practice, right? We're always figuring out in the moment what is liberation? Is this liberating? And so I think we have to be careful not to kind of place it in this in this framework where it is one thing, but it is mutual. It is many things it is a living organism within a larger than I want to say within a larger ecosystem. Freedom is the ecosystem.
Interlude (Shereetha) 11:38
What does liberation look like to you? Whether it's cartwheels or cheesecake, we'd love to know your answer to this question. So share with us @ismjpodcast on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Now let's get back to it...
Shereetha J. 11:58
We talked about liberation. This is your question of asking, how do we get free? I think what we're doing here in having these conversations, I don't think it's the solution, but I definitely think it's helping build a path towards it. And so when we think about "I'm Sorry Ms. Jackson Podcast", I'm thinking about the yellow brick road in a sense. Brick by brick, here is the path you take towards freedom.
But we're here to talk about this dope ass song, "Ms. Jackson" by OutKast. Big Boi and Dre, Andre 3000 and their ode to their "Baby's Mama-Mama". Do you remember hearing that? Because I remember hearing it!
I thought it was fly! Yes, Ms. Jackson! We're not going to talk about this being a slave owners name. We're not going to go there.
Trina 12:58
Alright. (laughter)
Shereetha J. 12:59
Many, many Jacksons out there. But this was so fly for them to put in the chorus to say I'm sorry, Ms. Jackson. Yeah, they're apologizing. But when I sat down and read the lyrics for real It's one of those apologies that like, when someone says, okay, you hurt me. And then you reply, I'm sorry that you feel that I hurt you.
Trina 13:22
It's not an apology. (laughter)
Shereetha J. 13:26
I'm sorry that you feel that I hurt you. But again, there's really many layers to this apology that's happening. In doing a lyrical analysis. We talk about love, faith, apology culture and the movement. And this song really does hit all of those components. So it has to be, I mean, it was easy to think. It had to be our namesake, right?
Trina 13:50
I remember how I felt when I heard this song. It was in the environment where it was still confident in the culture to be talking about baby's mama . And we grew this culture talking about baby's mom was really on the hill of welfare queen and so it was misogynistic, right? Welfare Queen. Baby mama and like in words like ratchet that came up behind that was really a punching down at black women. Even though other people are baby's mama Unsaid or unseen are the undergirding ideas there is that a baby's mama is young, is black. Is poor, like or working class. Is not cultured like not educated and unmarried, right? Because it's not my wife, it's my baby's mama. Not my fiance. Not my significant other. Like, it is like I am telling you the clear, clearly how I'm related to this person. Not because we've made any kind of commitment. And so it's about in some way women's honor being being disregarded like this. This is not my significant other, the person that I made a commitment to. This is the person who had my baby.
And so what OutKast did was take this idea of baby mama, and say, let's add a generation on top of that. So baby mama, mama. So they weren't going to go after the baby's mama. Because everybody was doing that. They are going after the baby's mama's mama, to talk about how black men are experiencing that conversation. Because everybody is seeing the caricature of black baby's mamas. And the other side of that conversation that we that we don't put in in the same kind of character is the ain't-shit black man. And so this is a song coming from a black man who's been called an ain't-shit black man by his baby's mama's mama.
And so this is a response to, you know what two folks layed down and we got up and had a baby. And things didn't work out between me and my baby's mama and you Miss Jackson baby's mama's Mama, is still talking about me like an ain't-shit black man. I'll be there on the first day of school. I'll be there for graduation. I'm paying the bills. Like what do I have to do to no longer be an ain't-shit black man? Besides get back with your daughter, and that's not gonna happen. I think that again, we were talking earlier before we were recording about the idea of the contronym of say words like "bad". And words like "left". And how contronyms are very, very much present African American vernacular English. And I think that they actually did this.
I can't remember the song came out.
Shereetha J. 16:28
It was 2000.
Trina 16:28
Like, wow, it was 20 years ago. So I think that the in the contronym that OutKast is saying, I'm sorry. A bad thing happened, people got hurt. I am sorry, Miss Jackson. This didn't work out. But the contronym is also saying I am a Sorry, no good nigga that there's nothing I could do to change your mind. Like I'm showing up. I'm saying I'm sorry. I'm admitting that I have fault here. And your mind is Jackson. I will only be a sorry person and so I am resigned to being that. And I'm gonna stop trying to change your mind.
Shereetha J. 17:03
You're saying I'm sorry, but at the same time it is having enough forethougt to know that easily...could have said, let's be together. We have this kid, right? But understanding that the relationship, itself, could be completely toxic. If we focus on the kid. They're actually doing that child favor by not pushing this, this relationship. But looking at it from a generational standpoint. I don't know about you, but I was just taught that you're supposed to get married. It's that Southern thing. Have this relationship. You get married. And then. And then you have this child, right?
That's not happening here. It didn't happen. She not the one. And now we have this kid. Which ideally we're looking at as a blessing. Ms. Jackson is like, Uh Uh! Not only have you dishonored my daughter, right? You ain't-shit individual. (Laughter)
You know, fuck it! I'm gonna do this. We're going to be in a relationship and it's two miserable people. And then making the kid miserable. Then you have more kids. (Laughter)
Still doing the thing that got you in this situation anyway. Might as well.
On the other side of it, Andre is talking about love. Ms. Jackson from Andre's side of it was Erykah Badu's mother. Because he and Erykah Badu had a son together. He speaks of genuinely being in love. He refers to it as Puppy Love. "You say it's Puppy Love. I say it's full grown. So, from this standpoint, of really relaying what loves looks like. Some of us believe that love is supposed to be for a lifetime. You're fed this, ths narrative that love is for a lifetime. You fall in love with someone supposed to be forever. (Forever, ever). In this case, that wasn't so. With that he's coming from a place of, I was in love. Legitimatelly. And from that we had a baby and it didn't work out. And I love that he even brings up praying about it. "Prayed so much I had to get some knee pads." Intertwining that love and faith component there. Like, man, I prayed about this thing!I
It's 20 years later and I do recognize that in a way it is kind of something about OutKast, and who they are and what they represent for us. It's just magical.
Trina 19:51
Yeah. Yeah. I think that they cultivated a unique way to book respectability politics. So I think that they were able to To push some conversations and push some ways of thinking in ways that other people didn't have access to or that other people weren't trying to do. I think they were, they were real artists, like the whole dungeon collective here in Atlanta.
Shereetha J. 20:14
Yes, The Dungeon Family.
Trina 20:16
And doing some, some really important stuff. And if you're in that era of hip hop in the world, this song in particular, I can think of a few other ones when they're pushing at respectability politics. "So Fresh and So Clean" is another one, you know, and but this in this song, they're saying that they refuse to bow down to the respectability politics of a previous generation. Who told us, similar to what you said, this is the path you walk. If you have a baby with somebody, you need to marry them and y'all need to be miserable together and make more miserable people and they're like, No, we're not. We're not going to do that. And it's in it's an act of resistance.
To say, we're not going to do that when the elders are saying this is this is what you must do. This is how You must perform based on your actions and they're not excusing themselves tp say we haven't made mistakes. And I don't know that sex is the mistake there. I think that that harm was caused in some way in relationships, which harm each other in relationships. And they're trying to make amends without without demeaning themselves. And some older generations. This is exactly the conversation that we're having in The Movement with older generations who are telling us that there are legitimate and illegitimate ways to process and holding their respect and their sense of respectability, as the leverage point to say you if you don't do it like people did in the 50s 60s and 70s. Then your resistance is not legitimate. And first of all, we know that there were particular ways of protesting that was legitimize and delegitimize in the Civil Rights Movement as well. And they tended to fall along certain kinds of philosophical lines that benefited mostly people who already had resources or have some proximity to white wealth and acceptance. And so now we have come to a place in the movement to say we don't need a respectability politics. And while we can learn lessons from the past, you need to come along with us where we're going because the reality is we are closer to the future than you are.
Interlude (Shereetha) 22:20
What's your favorite OutKast album? Right now we're highlighting "Stankonia" because of "Ms. Jackson". Personally, I'm torn between "Aquemini' and the dual album "Speakerboxxx/The Love Below". Hit us up @ismjpodcast on Facebook, IG, and Twitter. Alright. Let's get back to it...
Shereetha J. 22:43
You and I discussed this and you brought up a really great point about the settings of the video, and maybe the correlation between in the entire video they're actually battling the rain and trying to try to catch alll the water that's coming into the home. And eventually the roof actually crashes in on them. Hearing you talk about this, especially in raising up the line: "You can plan a pretty picnic, but you can't predict the weather." A that rings so true with what's was happening now, specifically with The Movement and social unrest and how people are expressing themselves. We can plan a pretty picnic but we cannot predict the weather here. It's so many elements involved.
Trina 23:32
Yeah. And you know, I think the unpredictability too. I think that part of what makes people uneasy about social movements broadly, but about this character, social movements when it's coming from generally speaking, younger people. Young black folks who are often marginalized in other ways beyond their youth and marginalized by class. Marginalized by sexual and gender, sexual identities and gender expressions. There's a certain predictability of what's going to happen next? And people want to know where who's in charge? Where are we going? What are we going to do? And it's not because people aren't strategizing. But I think there's an openness because again, this, this expression of The Movement is deeply rooted in spirituality.
If I can't tell you what the Spirit is gonna do, I can do things that are conducive to the spirit. I can do things that welcome the spirit, I can do things that you know that second, I can ask and supplicate the spirit but I can't tell you what the spirit's going to do. And this movement is for people who are willing to live in that dynamism and people who are willing to move as the spirit moves in and and and go with a lot of the flow. And know that and trust that we're going and like good and liberating direction. And so I think that this is this throws a lot of folks off Because even in the video, you know, like you said they're trying to catch the rain and they're battling the rain and in the end the roof falls in and they just kind of bask in the glow of really of what looks like to be a sunny sky coming through while the rain is still dripping through the roof.
And they're like there's some inevitability about the transformation that they have a new outlook on the rain. Like they have a new outlook on this thing that that they were running themselves ragged to control. They were trying to rein it in they're trying to contain it they were trying that's exactly what's happening, you know, with with with police and establishment. They trying to contain us with the National Guard, they're trying to rein us in, put up these these boundaries. So we can only go to this street and not that street. But there's some there's some inevitability that the rain will be everywhere. And so we just have to appreciate that freedom will rain down on us. As much as they try to contain our freedom contain our speech. Contain how we resist. And say we want our liberation. We want to be free, at some point, freedom will break through.
Interlude (Shereetha) 26:07
Please go in and press that like button. Show us some love. Give us a 5 star rating on whatever platform you're listening to us on. We appreciate you. Again we can't do this on our own. We need you guys.
Interlude (Trina) 26:22
Tell your friends.
Interlude (Shereetha) 26:23
Your mama them. Your cousin them. Your coworkers you're sitting on these remote meetings with. And you're not really paying attention but you cool with one of them. Go ahead and send them a message with a link to our podcast. And say, check them out!
Interlude (Trina) 26:39
Right, tell your enemies. We don't mind.
Shereetha J. 26:42
The ultimate goals is freedom. We can't do it alone. What does it mean? If I personally feel free and my brother, my sister, my friend, our fellow human being isn't free?
Trina 26:57
It's an illusion that there is no such thing as me being free and you not being free. Fannie Lou Hamer was very clear about that. You had other folks to come along, and like, I feel like she said it very well. So I want to give her credit for that. But I think that people have recognized that our mutual liberation, our freedoms are tied together. If one person is not free, none of us are completely free. Just an illusion, when other people when we will, when other people say they want freedom over it against somebody else's freedom, as if they were in a system of scarcity that if you get freedom, I can't have it. That's not that's not how freedom works. That's not how love works. That's not you know that there's not enough freedom in the universe for all of us. And so it's a false dichotomy to set that up and say if I have freedom, you can't have it.
Shereetha J. 27:44
You're right. I mean, we really do operate from a point of scarcity. I wonder what it looks like if we actually starts standing in abundance? And believing, because we do know there is enough. Yeah. There's enough. I think it is absolutely ridiculous for us to be at a time where there is anyone that's homesless. We have the buildings, right? There are places. There are spaces for people to be housed, but we choose to let them sleep on the street.
Trina 28:20
You know, Rayshard Brooks got murdered by the police a few weeks ago here in Atlanta. And, and people have been responding in lots of different ways as the protests are ongoing. But what I really loved was on the Fourth of July, is when a lot of folks came together in the city and built the Rayshard Brooks' peace center in Southwest right in front of the Wendy's where you got killed. And so that happened on the same weekend that they were a lot of shootings and killings in Atlanta. And so the thing that the police did that APD has been sitting it out for the last two weeks and protests got their shit together. In order to come and tear down the Peace Center. Part of the Peace Center was gardens was tiny houses that the community has built for people who are experiencing homelessness. And my question is what is gained APD? What is gained Keisha Lance bottoms mayor of Atlanta?
What is gained by taking homes away from people who were unhoused. Prior to that, like it has been in the hands of the city to help eliminate or at least reduce the amount of people who are experiencing homelessness in the city. And that's not to say there hasn't work hasn't been done. Community members came together and built some tiny houses for people in the area. And what is gained APD what is gained to the council by tearing those places down? What about giving someone shelter is so egregious, to their idea of freedom in law and order, that they would literally rip food from the ground, literally kick people out of home at a Peace Center. But they're telling us that we're the ones who are out of order. Were the ones who were acting lawless. They just destroyed it. They didn't give it to somebody else. They just destroyed it. Destruction for this for the sake of intimidation.
Shereetha J. 30:07
I'm sitting here and I am thinking about the beauty in the work that has gone forth at the site. I had the opportunity to be present, the day after Rayshard Brooks was unjustly killed. And I experienced the hostility and the hurt in the crowd, in the community, and the people present that day. And one I can honestly say. And it's not it's not a knock to the police. It's true. The people who live in that community didn't want to leasing that day than the hundred of police officers that were present in that space. On the other side of this, I'm also thinking about what that area's turned into. A lot of negativity is coming out of that space. So I'm glad that you raised up to housing. The gardens. The peace that's being pushed forward there. But at the same time, I have to raise up the name of Secoriea Turner. That hurt. An eight year old, one of our babies. To lose her life again unjustly and from gun violence.
Trina 31:30
You know, I think that the difference between Secoriea being shot and Rayshard being shot is that Rayshard's death was, yes, individual to individual. But also part of a system in which black life is devalued. And so it's not just Rayshard as an individual. It is an ongoing systemic danger coming from police who over police and use excessive force against black people. For Secoriea, there is no system of black people trying to kill black children. Right? There's no there's no larger structure of targeting black children. And so while her death is horrible, and and, and egregious within black communities, we have already been doing the work for many decades. This is what is difficult when I hear people talk about black on black crime as if white on white crime is also not 85% of the people who harm white people is other white people.
That we have years and years of black people in black communities, disarming black folks who have guns. Trying to change the community so that people don't feel like they need guns. Trying to get truces and accords between gangs who perpetrate gang violence. And these are the things that we that we hear about or talk about or see in policy. That black folks within our own communities within our own households have been combating black on black violence. So they're a black community. Right and and we still fail. Like we still have an enormous amount just like other communities have an intimate partner violence. We don't talk enough about the sexual abuse of children, especially child molestation, we don't talk enough about violence between people who are the same gender or between multiple genders. But we are having those conversations and I think what happened with Secoriea, again, it's something that's not a part of a larger system. And it becomes again a false equivalency to say that their deaths are the same.
Now, are they both people, are they both worthy? Yes, they're both people whose lives are worth being defended. In the midst of this movement and in the midst of the legacy of black resistance to state violence. We have coded Rayshard's death as an example of state violence against black bodies, we have not coded Secoriea's death as evidence of state violence against black people. Now, it is arguable that it is that you know, this is a conversation that a lot of people have as we talk about abolition and we talk about systemic racism. That you take a community in the deprive of resources. Deprive it of any kind of investment. Deprive the people the ability to have legitimate and legal employment. Deprive it of good education. Deprive it of the opportunity just to get fresh groceries, and you will see people will turn to criminalize behaviors, right? Because people will say, oh, there's not as much crime in predominantly white wealthy communities where there are lots more resources.
Right. They're not as much police patrol, right, and so you don't have as much engagement with police. And so I'm not in any way trying to defend black folks killing black folks. But I think that that we have boosted Rayshard's death to be a symbol of something, something larger and systemic in a way that we haven't with Secoriea. And I think that's based on how they died. Like Rayshard dying was not a mistake. Secoriea dying was a mistake. Right, the officer intended to kill him. Secoriea died from a stray bullet. Still not let any less tragic. And so I think that to try to hold those conversations as equal, hold their deaths as equal in circumstances. It's disingenuous, I think. And I said, that's what a lot of the black leadership is trying to do in this city. And it's disingenuous. I'm saying Keisha Lance bottoms, like because she has used this opportunity to escalate police presence in black communities.
Over policing, majority black communities working class and poor black communities is not preventing crime. Like they show up after a crime has been reported, but they're not preventing crime. So saying that there should be more police in that neighborhood would not have kept Korea from getting killed. But the authorities of Atlanta have used this opportunity. Strangely, they did not use up, they'd use this opportunity to increase police presence and to get more money to police in APD. But they didn't use opportunity of Rayshard's death, to retrain police to take some money from them to deform them to change something. Why does one catalyze more money to police and one doesn't subtract money from police?
Shereetha J. 36:30
Here's the thing. And you and I know this and those listening, I believe they will understand this as well. You know, what kind to the media?
Trina 36:20
Well, the stereotype of the natural criminality of black people, I think that this plays very well. That Secoriea's death plays very well for a media that's not interested in decriminalizing black people.
Interlude (Trina) 36:46
We have some other episodes lined up and I'm excited to get feedback from other folks on Patreon, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. When they hear some of the conversations that we've been having with folks. Hope that we can garner even more awesome guests as we make this path together.
Shereetha J. 37:15
You mentioned defunding the police and I had the opportunity to go to a peaceful demonstration recently, which was in front of the new and upcoming police precinct off of Cleveland Avenue and Metropolitan. And that experience for me, which I'm still processing but the people that community asked some hard hitting questions that needed to be asked. Because the new building, the new precinct, it looks fantastic. Quite nice, actually. Very modern, very upscale. However, when you look to the left, to the right, and all around nothing else in that neighborhood reflects this building. And what it represen, It's actually rundown. Clearly, funding hasn't been put into preventing food scarcity and for that area being a food desert.
So citizens showed up and asked the question, Where we getting the money? And why isn't it being invested into the people rather than investing it into the police? So by putting a higher police presence in this area, how will they impact the children that are growing up here? What will their lives look like? Because I personally don't think it's going to be any better. Because if you are already labeled as a criminal, your your your skin tends to signify that you're a criminal. We've been taught and we know what our relationships as black folks as black people, what that relationship looks like. I don't know what the goal is here. For them to put funding into the building in this way. I can be hopeful. I'm hopeful about a lot of things. But as it stands, I don't believe it's there to help them. In fact, I do believe it's going to be a hindrance.
Trina 39:15
I think that that, that you're exactly right. This building reminds me of a conversation I had with a student when I was teaching high school science. And I mean, I was teaching at a school in South East Atlanta in generally speaking, the students from for working class and poor households and backgrounds. Right, 98% of the kids were eligible for free and reduced lunch. It's probably 98 to 99% black students and in the winter is very cold in our in our school in my classroom, and so kids would be there in their blankets and, and in their coats. If they had coats in their little coats kind of huddled together while I'm trying to you know, teach chemistry. And when it rains it rains outside our building, Rained inside our school and I remember having a conversation with a student I think that he's probably a sophomore at that time. As we were watching the custodial staff position trash cans in the hallway was like a lunch time or something. The custodial staff were positioning trash cans to catch the water that was coming through the ceiling. And also the rat shit that was up there. That was coming down.
And he asked me Miss Jackson, why are you here? Like, why? Why are you teaching here? Like they always want to know, like, your background where you come from. And I'm like you know, I love y'all. I think science is important. I want to share the thing, that I love. I love science. You know, I want to share that with y'all. I think it can be useful for your life. But he's like, no, why are you here in this building? You could teach somewhere else. Because look at this building. Nobody cares about us. This conversation came about because I've been gone for a little while because I was sick and it took me some time to recover. And he was like, the rumor has spread that I was never coming back. And so he said, Why are you here? Why did you come back? We didn't think you're gonna come back. And I was like, I came back because I love y'all. I love science. And he's like like look at this school. They don't love us, like nobody loves us. Look at our books. For everybody in the class will have one, we can never take our book home. Right? We had, we live in a place where there's rat shit in the ceiling, there were like a family was living in the ceiling also. And when it rains, it rains in here, everything around here is falling apart. This is all I need to know about what people think of me.
And so when you talk about that new precinct being upscale and beautiful, and then everything around it, is not well taken care of. I'm clear that kids will look at their structural environment, the built environment on the ground environment, like the physical environment we live in. What it communicates to the kids in the Southwest with that beautiful swanky police precinct is this is what is most important here. This deserves to have resources poured into so when even if no one says that directly, you have a building that is well maintained around buildings that aren't well maintained. So people who are walking there get the subliminal message that this is important. And these other things or not. You also get the message that we need to spend money containing you people, that that is where the money needs to go for this community for people who will help to control you. Not for your stores. Not for your homes. Not for your street in your environment. It is so we can make sure that you are well controlled.
And so I think that we forget, sometimes as adults, you know, we're able to put things in the background of our mind a lot of times. But I think that it still impacts us. But kids are very aware of their environment in a way that I like, you know, I live on a farm and the way I think that my animals are very aware of the direct environment directly around them and what it's telling them. And that precinct tells kids that this is where the government said, this is what's important, so we will spend money on it. Your house is not important to us. Being able to access fresh food is not important to us. Like being able to give you a safe and well maintained place to live is not important to us. Being able to give you more than adequate. education is not important to us. What's important to us is that you can be policed right near your home. That's what's important. And so that is an example of structural violence towards these communities. To say we will spend money on this, but not invest in you. We will invest in containing you but we will not invest in you.
Shereetha J. 43:19
Reminds me of the study of how prisons, corporations, actually look at third graders in certain areas, specifically focusing on people color. And using that to project how many beds they need to have in prisons. What happens when we put that money that you're spending on a study? What happens if we put that money into the school systems and into the surrounding areas to actually improve the way of life.
Trina 43:55
We know how we can profit from prisons who profit from educated black folks?
Shereetha J. 44:03
Thank you for listening to "I'm Sorry Ms. Jackson Podcast": a lyrical analysis of love, faith, apology culture, and The Movement. I'm Shereetha J. Trina, why don't you tell them how that can keep up with us.
Trina 44:18
You can find us on Twitter. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on Patreon. Please patronize us on Patreon. You can look us up @ismjpodcast on Patreon, Instagram, and Twitter.
Shereetha J. 44:30
And Facebook! Please, support The Movement.
Trina 44:35
Support it!
Outro Music: Everyday I Think Of You (I Am For Real) 44:30